Post by Wiotack on Sept 27, 2006 15:14:29 GMT -5
Below is a summary of both systems of loot distribution currently being considered by the CoA. If you have questions about either, feel free to post them here and I'll try to get an answer for you. Right now we (DoJ) are leaning toward the Suicide Kings system. If anyone has objections to our voting for that system please let me know ASAP. As it stands right now, four of the six guilds have voted and the vote stands at a two/two tie.
Grimme
====================================
Zero-sum
Zero-sum as a concept simply means there's a fixed number of points in the system. If you take away points (i.e. someone uses points to win an item), you must add them elsewhere. The system starts with a fixed pool of points, and those points are distributed to the team.
Under this system, a fixed point value is assigned to each item. So the item “Uber bow of feign deathing” might get a point value of 20. When a person takes an item, the points are subtracted from his/her total, split among the people in the raid, and added to their total. So your point accumulation doesn't come from attendance, it comes from other people taking items.
Let's run through a zero-sum example. Let's say the entire raid pool consist of 5 people, and we decide we will "seed" the system with 100 points apiece:
Person 1: 100
Person 2: 100
Person 3: 100
Person 4: 100
Person 5: 100
We have 3 items defined, one worth 50, one worth 100, and one worth 200. So item A, the 50 pointer, drops. Everyone has the same points, so we can go to a random roll off. Person 3 wins. The list is now:
Person 1: 110
Person 2: 110
Person 3: 60
Person 4: 110
Person 5: 110
We subtracted 50. Divided by 5, and added 10 back to everyone. Item B, the 100 pointer drops. 4 way tie, so they all roll, and person 1 wins. List becomes:
Person 1: 30
Person 2: 130
Person 3: 80
Person 4: 130
Person 5: 130
Now the big Kahuna, the 200 point item drops. 3-way tie, they roll, and person 2 wins. List becomes:
Person 1: 70
Person 2: -30
Person 3: 120
Person 4: 170
Person 5: 170
Obviously with a 40 man system, point increase would be significantly slower, and gaps between players much smaller.
One objection to this is point hoarding. However, the only reason to horde points is if you only need a very few drops, and those items don't drop often. On this point, we actually want someone who comes consistently and is unable to win to gain something, which this accomplishes. Second, this generally is a self-solving problem, as the people most likely to accumulate points are the same people most likely to be passing on all but one or two items. Lastly, with reasonable item point values, point increase will be reasonably slow, and the gap between players small. So gaining enough to guarantee multiple drops would take a LARGE investment of time, and this has to be comparative to others.
We could run the system with a cap or without. A cap might make the use of add-ons more difficult, raising admin issues.
====================================
Suicide Kings - An overview
I think part of the problem with selling Suicide Kings, as a system is that it does not lend itself well to concise description. Nevertheless, I'll do my best. The style of my summary is going to differ somewhat from Keelmann's, as the nature of Suicide Kings raises a lot of questions, the most common of which I will try to answer.
First though, I'll plug the super-awesome flash slideshow that describes the system with nifty pictures. Keep in mind though that this is just one form of the system, and that we've already thought of a number of potential changes that would adapt it to better suit the CoA.
Suicide Kings is a "queue" system, which in theory means everyone gets in a neat little line and takes turn getting loot as they reach the front of the line. In practice, it is very different. You need to be in a raid to move ahead in the line, which means that frequent raiders have a faster trip to the front, and thereby more frequent chances at loot. People who are not in a given raid do not lose their place, but are instead passed, which further accelerates frequent raiders' progression to the front of the line, as passing someone means you get bumped up two spots for the price of one.
Clear as mud, right? I think an example is in order. Lets say the overall list looks something like this (only larger):
1) Ralphie
2) Keelmann
3) Selexa
4) Fearghaill
5) Rowairn
6) Cici
7) Fing
8) Gorte
9) Zellvan
10) Pitorro
11) Nidalati
12) Cujoy
13) Lotti
14) Nightdang
15) Carrierwave
This means that any run he is on, Ralphie gets the first chance at any non-class specific loot that drops. If Ralphie is not in the raid, then Keelmann is effectively #1 for the raid, and so on. Say this is one of the upcoming 10-man instances (and we're using SK for it for whatever reason), and the list of folks actually in the raid looks like this (overall rankings in parentheses):
1) Ralphie (1)
2) Selexa (3)
3) Fearghaill (4)
4) Cici (6)
5) Fing (7)
6) Gorte(8 )
7) Pitorro(10)
8) Cujoy(12)
9) Lotti(13)
10) Nightdang(14)
So we're rolling through the instance, and the first item that drops is a Totally Sweet Staff of Sweetness. Ralphie, Selexa and Fearghaill all pass, and Cici wants it. She takes it, and "suicides" to the bottom of the raid list, which now looks like this:
1) Ralphie (1)
2) Selexa (3)
3) Fearghaill (4)
4) Fing (6)
5) Gorte (7)
6) Pitorro (8 )
7) Cujoy (10)
8) Lotti (12)
9) Nightdang (13)
10) Cici (14)
The fact that a suicide takes you to the bottom of the raid list rather than the overall one is an important one, as Cici is still ahead of Carrierwave in the overall standings (as standing cannot change for people not in the raid). Everyone else who had been below Cici moved up one spot in the raid list, which can translate to more than one spot in the overall list if the person or people directly above you are not in the raid - Pitorro and Cujoy each jumped 2 spots.
Next cross-class item that drops is a ring that Ralphie doesn't care for, but Selexa wants. He takes it and suicides. The new raid standings are:
1) Ralphie (1)
2) Fearghaill (3)
3) Fing (4)
4) Gorte (6)
5) Pitorro (7)
6) Cujoy (8 )
7) Lotti (10)
8) Nightdang (12)
9) Cici (13)
10) Selexa(14)
The raid ends with no further cross-class drops, so the overall list now looks like this:
1) Ralphie
2) Keelmann
3) Fearghaill
4) Fing
5) Rowairn
6) Gorte
7) Pitorro
8) Cujoy
9) Zellvan
10) Lotti
11) Nidalati
12) Cujoy
13) Cici
14) Selexa
15) Carrierwave
Of course, this example only covers the cross-class list and items. Each toon will also be on a second list containing members of their class, to be used for class-specific items such as set pieces and BWL trinkets. A player could be at the top of one list and near the bottom of the other, or vise-versa.
Suicide Kings FAQ
How are initial standings determined?
Under a traditional Suicide Kings system the initial standings are determined randomly, which would be unfair in the situation the CoA is in - Keel has proposed a method in which past raid attendance could be used to determine initial ranking more fairly, though the details of how that would work can be determined if the system is chosen for going forward.
How would we award people for helping learn new content?
This would work in much the same way as determining initial standings on "farm" content - The standings dont need to be determined until a boss drops loot, so we could look back at all of the "learning experiences" we've had against Razorgore until he actually dies, and give the people who ran the most higher initial standing.
What happens if nothing drops for your class?
This is one of the advantages of having two lists - even if no druid loot drops in the entire run, the druids would still have the opportunity to advance on the cross class list. In general, due to the much smaller size of the class lists, progression is quite quick for regular raiders, as they don't need to advance as far to get to the top, especially if they're passing casual raiders along the way.
But if someone makes it to the top of the list and stops raiding for a while, no one can pass them! They'll still be #1 when they come back?
The penalty for sitting at the top too long, however, is that people will be passing you, as sitting at the top and holding out for the item you want is essentially the same as not attending raids, in that your overall position cannot improve. If PlayerX sits at #1 too long, either through inattendance, or holding out for his epic ring of awesomeness, PlayerY, PlayerZ, and others will have ample opportunity to pass him and start working their way back up the list, ensuring that they have priority over him next time around. In that regard it balances out - once someone makes it to the very top of one of the lists, they are guaranteed the chance to take the next drop they want. They've earned it, by either helping every single player who had been above them in the raid lists get something. SK's method of penalizing inattendance in this matter is to give the other people raiding a chance to get ahead of them for the next cycle. As one approaches the top of the list in any case, progression will slow down, which is how SK encourages people to take drops rather than hold out.
Can't someone just sit out raids and wait to move up the list?
Not a chance - unless you're in a raid, and someone above you wins a drop, your position doesn't change, and everyone who is raiding passes you. On the other hand, someone who is raiding every chance they get is going to move up quickly, as every drop that goes to someone ahead of them in line moves them forward.
What about someone who really only wants 2 items, and waits forever at #1 to see one of them drop? It doesn't seem fair that they'd then have to start over to get a high enough standing to win the second!
This is somewhat true, but this is where the advantage to the frquent raider afforded by Suicide Kings is different from that of DKP. In Suicide Kings, once someone earns the #1 spot they are flat out guaranteed the item of their choice when it drops, even if they miss a raid or two in the meantime. Under a DKP system, no such guarantee exists - if the system is capped, there could be other people at the cap to compete with, and if it's uncapped, they need to make sure that they continue to raid frequently enough to avoid being passed. The drawback to SK's guaranteed loot is that it's all or nothing - you take the drop, and then you go to the back of the raid, whereas under a DKP system you could buy the drop and still have some points left over.
Grimme
====================================
Zero-sum
Zero-sum as a concept simply means there's a fixed number of points in the system. If you take away points (i.e. someone uses points to win an item), you must add them elsewhere. The system starts with a fixed pool of points, and those points are distributed to the team.
Under this system, a fixed point value is assigned to each item. So the item “Uber bow of feign deathing” might get a point value of 20. When a person takes an item, the points are subtracted from his/her total, split among the people in the raid, and added to their total. So your point accumulation doesn't come from attendance, it comes from other people taking items.
Let's run through a zero-sum example. Let's say the entire raid pool consist of 5 people, and we decide we will "seed" the system with 100 points apiece:
Person 1: 100
Person 2: 100
Person 3: 100
Person 4: 100
Person 5: 100
We have 3 items defined, one worth 50, one worth 100, and one worth 200. So item A, the 50 pointer, drops. Everyone has the same points, so we can go to a random roll off. Person 3 wins. The list is now:
Person 1: 110
Person 2: 110
Person 3: 60
Person 4: 110
Person 5: 110
We subtracted 50. Divided by 5, and added 10 back to everyone. Item B, the 100 pointer drops. 4 way tie, so they all roll, and person 1 wins. List becomes:
Person 1: 30
Person 2: 130
Person 3: 80
Person 4: 130
Person 5: 130
Now the big Kahuna, the 200 point item drops. 3-way tie, they roll, and person 2 wins. List becomes:
Person 1: 70
Person 2: -30
Person 3: 120
Person 4: 170
Person 5: 170
Obviously with a 40 man system, point increase would be significantly slower, and gaps between players much smaller.
One objection to this is point hoarding. However, the only reason to horde points is if you only need a very few drops, and those items don't drop often. On this point, we actually want someone who comes consistently and is unable to win to gain something, which this accomplishes. Second, this generally is a self-solving problem, as the people most likely to accumulate points are the same people most likely to be passing on all but one or two items. Lastly, with reasonable item point values, point increase will be reasonably slow, and the gap between players small. So gaining enough to guarantee multiple drops would take a LARGE investment of time, and this has to be comparative to others.
We could run the system with a cap or without. A cap might make the use of add-ons more difficult, raising admin issues.
====================================
Suicide Kings - An overview
I think part of the problem with selling Suicide Kings, as a system is that it does not lend itself well to concise description. Nevertheless, I'll do my best. The style of my summary is going to differ somewhat from Keelmann's, as the nature of Suicide Kings raises a lot of questions, the most common of which I will try to answer.
First though, I'll plug the super-awesome flash slideshow that describes the system with nifty pictures. Keep in mind though that this is just one form of the system, and that we've already thought of a number of potential changes that would adapt it to better suit the CoA.
Suicide Kings is a "queue" system, which in theory means everyone gets in a neat little line and takes turn getting loot as they reach the front of the line. In practice, it is very different. You need to be in a raid to move ahead in the line, which means that frequent raiders have a faster trip to the front, and thereby more frequent chances at loot. People who are not in a given raid do not lose their place, but are instead passed, which further accelerates frequent raiders' progression to the front of the line, as passing someone means you get bumped up two spots for the price of one.
Clear as mud, right? I think an example is in order. Lets say the overall list looks something like this (only larger):
1) Ralphie
2) Keelmann
3) Selexa
4) Fearghaill
5) Rowairn
6) Cici
7) Fing
8) Gorte
9) Zellvan
10) Pitorro
11) Nidalati
12) Cujoy
13) Lotti
14) Nightdang
15) Carrierwave
This means that any run he is on, Ralphie gets the first chance at any non-class specific loot that drops. If Ralphie is not in the raid, then Keelmann is effectively #1 for the raid, and so on. Say this is one of the upcoming 10-man instances (and we're using SK for it for whatever reason), and the list of folks actually in the raid looks like this (overall rankings in parentheses):
1) Ralphie (1)
2) Selexa (3)
3) Fearghaill (4)
4) Cici (6)
5) Fing (7)
6) Gorte(8 )
7) Pitorro(10)
8) Cujoy(12)
9) Lotti(13)
10) Nightdang(14)
So we're rolling through the instance, and the first item that drops is a Totally Sweet Staff of Sweetness. Ralphie, Selexa and Fearghaill all pass, and Cici wants it. She takes it, and "suicides" to the bottom of the raid list, which now looks like this:
1) Ralphie (1)
2) Selexa (3)
3) Fearghaill (4)
4) Fing (6)
5) Gorte (7)
6) Pitorro (8 )
7) Cujoy (10)
8) Lotti (12)
9) Nightdang (13)
10) Cici (14)
The fact that a suicide takes you to the bottom of the raid list rather than the overall one is an important one, as Cici is still ahead of Carrierwave in the overall standings (as standing cannot change for people not in the raid). Everyone else who had been below Cici moved up one spot in the raid list, which can translate to more than one spot in the overall list if the person or people directly above you are not in the raid - Pitorro and Cujoy each jumped 2 spots.
Next cross-class item that drops is a ring that Ralphie doesn't care for, but Selexa wants. He takes it and suicides. The new raid standings are:
1) Ralphie (1)
2) Fearghaill (3)
3) Fing (4)
4) Gorte (6)
5) Pitorro (7)
6) Cujoy (8 )
7) Lotti (10)
8) Nightdang (12)
9) Cici (13)
10) Selexa(14)
The raid ends with no further cross-class drops, so the overall list now looks like this:
1) Ralphie
2) Keelmann
3) Fearghaill
4) Fing
5) Rowairn
6) Gorte
7) Pitorro
8) Cujoy
9) Zellvan
10) Lotti
11) Nidalati
12) Cujoy
13) Cici
14) Selexa
15) Carrierwave
Of course, this example only covers the cross-class list and items. Each toon will also be on a second list containing members of their class, to be used for class-specific items such as set pieces and BWL trinkets. A player could be at the top of one list and near the bottom of the other, or vise-versa.
Suicide Kings FAQ
How are initial standings determined?
Under a traditional Suicide Kings system the initial standings are determined randomly, which would be unfair in the situation the CoA is in - Keel has proposed a method in which past raid attendance could be used to determine initial ranking more fairly, though the details of how that would work can be determined if the system is chosen for going forward.
How would we award people for helping learn new content?
This would work in much the same way as determining initial standings on "farm" content - The standings dont need to be determined until a boss drops loot, so we could look back at all of the "learning experiences" we've had against Razorgore until he actually dies, and give the people who ran the most higher initial standing.
What happens if nothing drops for your class?
This is one of the advantages of having two lists - even if no druid loot drops in the entire run, the druids would still have the opportunity to advance on the cross class list. In general, due to the much smaller size of the class lists, progression is quite quick for regular raiders, as they don't need to advance as far to get to the top, especially if they're passing casual raiders along the way.
But if someone makes it to the top of the list and stops raiding for a while, no one can pass them! They'll still be #1 when they come back?
The penalty for sitting at the top too long, however, is that people will be passing you, as sitting at the top and holding out for the item you want is essentially the same as not attending raids, in that your overall position cannot improve. If PlayerX sits at #1 too long, either through inattendance, or holding out for his epic ring of awesomeness, PlayerY, PlayerZ, and others will have ample opportunity to pass him and start working their way back up the list, ensuring that they have priority over him next time around. In that regard it balances out - once someone makes it to the very top of one of the lists, they are guaranteed the chance to take the next drop they want. They've earned it, by either helping every single player who had been above them in the raid lists get something. SK's method of penalizing inattendance in this matter is to give the other people raiding a chance to get ahead of them for the next cycle. As one approaches the top of the list in any case, progression will slow down, which is how SK encourages people to take drops rather than hold out.
Can't someone just sit out raids and wait to move up the list?
Not a chance - unless you're in a raid, and someone above you wins a drop, your position doesn't change, and everyone who is raiding passes you. On the other hand, someone who is raiding every chance they get is going to move up quickly, as every drop that goes to someone ahead of them in line moves them forward.
What about someone who really only wants 2 items, and waits forever at #1 to see one of them drop? It doesn't seem fair that they'd then have to start over to get a high enough standing to win the second!
This is somewhat true, but this is where the advantage to the frquent raider afforded by Suicide Kings is different from that of DKP. In Suicide Kings, once someone earns the #1 spot they are flat out guaranteed the item of their choice when it drops, even if they miss a raid or two in the meantime. Under a DKP system, no such guarantee exists - if the system is capped, there could be other people at the cap to compete with, and if it's uncapped, they need to make sure that they continue to raid frequently enough to avoid being passed. The drawback to SK's guaranteed loot is that it's all or nothing - you take the drop, and then you go to the back of the raid, whereas under a DKP system you could buy the drop and still have some points left over.
*goes back to his simpler less confusing game*