|
|
Post by Wiotack on Sept 17, 2006 22:14:37 GMT -5
The CoA will soon be adopting a new loot rolling system. It is a system that is used by the guild Suicide Kings. At first I was adverse to going with a point type system for CoA loot rolling but after seeing this system it appears to be fair and equitable to both casual and the more hard core players alike. You can see the SK system by clicking SK Flash That will take you to a flash animation you can go through to see how the system works. If you have any questions after going through that flash animation please feel free to post them here or catch me in game and I'll do my best to answer your questions. Grimme |
|
Jaxs
Administrator 
Posts: 1,991
|
Post by Jaxs on Sept 18, 2006 9:28:09 GMT -5
Are they rolling for initial standings?
How do people get points.
How come when people took items they did not go to zero? Seems if you were 532 then go to 32 you are ahead of every person with a 1.
Are they really going to use a banking system for all the other greens and blue stuff?
You take a blue idol and go to the bottom?
Who will maintain this list?
I noticed they give items (a book) to a player not in attendance!
The system seems very complicated for the average person to understand. It seems a simple "take turns" system but it is not really.
I don't run raids any longer because they tool my Tuesday nights away.
This game and the (greed) factor really makes me ill. Its sad that you have to be greedy to get items since items are the only way to advance. I think I will be waiting for the expansion to explore lvl 60+ areas more and then I maybe Ill be done.
I could see a person in the middle going to on a number of raids and getting nothing before they even get a shot at something they want or can use. The owner of the bank will have tons of stuff that are good that people don't want to take because they don't want to move down.
They way it now people at least got something even if it just covered expenses. I might as well just buy my gold off e-bay. Probably save myself time and grief.
Now the guy at the bottom should just SK everything. This way he will get every item that someone doest SK for. He will stay at the bottom and get rich. Even if someone else SK's for an item the bottom guy will loose on that but if he SK's for everything he will be on the bottom again in short order.
This will force people to SK for even the lesser stuff. Of course if someone sk'ed all the time they would clamp down on that I suppose.
I am not sure why anyone would just do a standard roll for anything.
I would like to know about these things because our guild members are involved. I don't trust these weighted systems much but as part of an organization like CoA majority rules. Greed has one the day again.
|
|
|
|
Post by Obiwill on Sept 18, 2006 10:00:47 GMT -5
Well, I can say I have met quite a few good people in CoA in adventuring with them, but honestly, speaking from an old veteran recently returned, I would have to agree with Jaxs that greed drives everything. I have trouble getting into a single MC raid after three weeks of trying. Unfortunately I am not at home all day anymore and by the time sign up comes the group is full. Later on I learn not everyone showed up; but I am sure it is the greed factor that by assuring your spot you can then pick or choose what you need. Meanwhile, here I sit at Lvl 60 Green, unable to do higher instances since I am not "specced out". Well, how exactly can I get specced out if I cant get into a CoA group and more importantly, every single PuG I have gone on the past two weeks (the sole excption being Stabsmcnasty's group) the party failed to achieve its goals and actually died because people were too busy looting?
Anyone who has adventured with me knows I have no issue with walking away from even Epic drops if someone simply HAS to have it. But personally I think it is offensive and repugnant for the overlords to put in place rules that effect the chance of the everyday or casual player. I don't NEED to be cannonfodder. I simply will farm enough to buy what I need.
As for professional gaming, I can say at the height of SWG I found a pretty penny to be made. The novel experiment for me really, truly taught me it is much better for the casual player to buy the cash needed and forget the "group" thing. I noted that "groups" merely served one or two of the power players needs, likely to generate cash on the open market.
I probably have alot more to add but this policy is a group one and not necessarily reflective of DoJ as a group. And of course Paladins are a dime a dozen so it is not like I will be missed if I don't group in MC.
|
|
|
|
Post by keelmann on Sept 18, 2006 13:48:51 GMT -5
Jaxs, that's a lot of questions, hope no one minds my chiming in.
No, but we're not sure yet how we're going to do it. The discussion is going on now on the GL forum of coaz.
SK, if that's the system all the guilds decide on, isn't point based, so there is no point accumulation.
The numbers really don't mean much, aside from the position. Just think of it as getting in line, and taking turns. When you accept loot, you go to the back of the line. Those numbers in the example just came from the way they started it, which was rolling. You could take the numbers out, or make it A to Z, and it would do the same thing.
No, not in the plan as far as I know.
No, as far as I know, this is epic items only. Last item discussed was making it only for the 40 mans. Hopefully, if we can work out how to do it easily, we can have a separate loot list for each 40 man.
It will be shared among raid leaders, and hopefully published. I think also raid members can download the addon and see the list, but not sure. Going to try out the addon tonight.
Yep, that's exactly what it is.
Sure, there's some greed out there. But for the most part, we have a ton of people who have been doing MC for over a year now, supporting casual playstyles, newcomers, and a random roll system, when they just as easily could join a DKP raid guild, and get loot at a much higher rate. I don't think greed factors into this equation at this point. This is about making the system more consistent, less streaky for everybody.
True. There will be times you will raid, and realistically, you won't get a shot at an epic. Right now, the longest current streak I know of is someone who has raided consistently, and hasn't won any epic item for almost 8 months.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, bank is a non-issue. We don't have a CoA bank.
It's not realistic to say I want a shot at epics every time. Suicide Kings, if we do it right, should give every a predictable and steady path to advance.
I don't yet understand the implications of the 'suicide' move. We may not even implement that portion. If we do, it will be with modifications to remove any problems.
The people who are originating this plan, discussing it, working on it, and presenting it serve to gain absolutely nothing. We are working our tails off to make a system that's fun, easy, even, and let's everybody, and I mean everybody, get what they want. Please make sure you understand the motivations before you ascribe greed to it.
[/quote]
|
|
Jaxs
Administrator
Posts: 1,991
|
Post by Jaxs on Sept 18, 2006 15:17:19 GMT -5
I know the motivations behind this and will attest that people are only trying to make things fair and amiable for those that put time and effort into things. You are also running into not having the appropriate gear for BWL. I understand completely.
But WoW is all about greed! WoW basses its game play on acquiring things simply to toss out those item slightly inferior. There is “no sharing” in WoW as in UO, SWG, DAoC and in most other mmorpg that I have played in the past. This one fact alone has done great damage to many a gaming community including our own.
Almost all our differences could be solved in one stroke if players could hand down their no longer needed precious pixels. Think about it. For every upgrade a person “wins” others “must loose” out and all the time things sold to an NPC are better than what one of our guild community member is probably using. What a shame, what a crime, sinful.
We would have plenty of people geared if things could be handed down. “Bind to a character is a new aberration in mmorpgs created in this game. It is about slowing the progression of people’s characters to prolong subscriptions. The act of covetous towards others about the acquisition of items for whatever reason (even to progress further into the game) has been accentuated in WoW to a height I have never seen before. And it has hurt our gaming community. In all of the mmorpgs that I have played in the past people routinely gave away some of the most powerful weapons and armor to their friends. And off they went to have fun. This is not the case in WoW. “Charity” is not happening any time soon in WoW. And many a friend has left their friends behind in the pursuit of those precious pixels.
It may not be our doing. We did not create the WoW. But don’t be fooled, it is about greed. Ask yourself how many people have left us to join some other DKP raid guild or what not in the quest for gear!
Until the day “Charity” is put back into WoW my assessment of Greed has won the day stands. Don’t take offence. I am a realist too. It’s the world in which we play….
|
|
|
|
Post by Wiotack on Sept 19, 2006 8:32:55 GMT -5
Obi,
Just read your reply and I hope you don't stop coming to MC with us just because we're changing the way we distribute loot. While you say Paly's are a dime a dozen, that's not really the case. Almost every run we find ourselves going to the queue to fill out our raid groups. So even if you find yourself in the queue you still have a fair chance of actually making the run.
As for the loot, this is not a bad system for loot distribution but it's far from perfect. While it may not be what we're used to,I think it will help in the long run to insure that everyone gets a fair chance to complete their sets. And the importance of that is that without people completing sets we have no chance of completing the final boss in MC and progressing further in BWL, AQ20/AQ40, ZG, or Nazz.
If you doubt me, lets just take my toon Rowairn as an example. Row has his complete Tier 1 set (that's the set that drops in MC), and he also has a nice offhand item and a staff that were all gotten from MC. Now when I attend the runs, I'll just move up in the loot distribution list. When I get to the top of my class loot distribution list then I'm going sit there because there is nothing left for me to get. What that means is if something drops for a priest then I'll pass on the item because I already have it. The loot then goes to the next person down on the list if they need it to complete their set. Should they not need it then it is offered to the third person on the list. And so it goes till someone actually needs the item. Eventually everyone will have a chance to receive an item they need and once they do then they go to the bottom of the list so the person who was below them initially is now above them. Eventually all the priests will have every item of their class set. Now it may take just a bit longer if they aren't regular attendees, but still they WILL get their sets. The same holds true of ALL the different class sets.
Now for the other epic loot, each person is initially seeded in the "queue" to receive loot. Each time they attend or are queued and ready to go on a run they move up in the loot "queue". As with the class set pieces, the person at the top of the "queue" gets first option on any non-set epic that drops (as long as that epic is something that could benefit that person). If they choose to pass on the item then it moves down the list till someone actually wants it.
This system is no different than the actual mechanic that the game uses for distribution of group loot. If you are in a 5 man the game determines which of the people in the group sees the sparkle by progressing through each of the group members in turn.
Bottom line is that everyone will have a chance for loot using the new system, no matter how often they attend. And unlike a true DKP system, nobody is penalized for NOT attending.
Grimme
|
|
|
|
Post by Obiwill on Sept 19, 2006 12:45:20 GMT -5
I cancelled from tonight's raid because frankly it is a waste of time to sit and wait. The loot change doesn't really effect me because quite frankly I have only been on one raid and there was no loot from it. I will have to study the new loot system alot more before I make a decision on whether to quest under it or not. But from what I can see now, between never even getting INTO a raid, and then being bumped down the list if I recieve an epic loot would at best make it over a year before I had more than one epic item, if even that. For a power/casual player like myself that is not really appealling.
Now if there was as systematic queu to the PhP signup I might conceed the controlled division of loot overall was good. By systematic queue, if you dont show up, you can't sign up for four weeks or if you drop out early, no signee for two weeks or if you only get into one of each raid, something that gives EVERYONE a chance to get in. Otherwise the loot system is moot. This is the first week I did not see many of the same old pally names in the list. But, even as I write this, I think of how many alt 60s there are and really, how it is already impossible for newer 60s or returning players to get around that invisible "queue".
So for me, if I want "stuff" beyond the experiences I have to weigh the costs and benefits. That right now means more cost than benefit. However, since I have not been to many high end instances, I am still going for the experience. But it is disappointing to come out on the short end.
|
|
Jaxs
Administrator
Posts: 1,991
|
Post by Jaxs on Sept 19, 2006 14:13:16 GMT -5
Hang in there. when the expansion hits we will all get into these places with ease.
Non of us will have orange gear.
Everyone will have purple stuff.
|
|
|
|
Post by Obiwill on Sept 19, 2006 18:40:30 GMT -5
Eh, I don't have to "hang in there'. I will do what my first mmorpg mates taught me so well to do; I will generate income business and buy what I need. I dont think I will get the 3 plus billion I did in the last game but I am sure I can pound out a few k here.  Simply put, a casual gamer who has limited time, such as me, comes to play. I really don't care less about the items, I just want to be a viable unit in this schema. My only "luxury" that I wanted is also a time saver, the epic mount. AFter that I want to help out where I can and when I can. I do not have limitless time. I do have limitless ideas though and to benefit me, and my team, I find the ONLY way to do it is the income generation in game. Maybe I never loot Sword Of Allmighty Power, but I sure can buy it if I work to attain 1 million gold. And that really, truly, is my only option. Loot schemas are like tax laws. The rich get richer, and I still end up in the same place. Not that I am complaining but I don't really need to go through the grind. Pick up groups are just as viable. And if you have read my other writings you KNOW what I think of them. |
|
|
|
Post by Glifnich on Sept 20, 2006 9:01:53 GMT -5
[Throws a tuppence in the jar.] Personally, I think raiding for loot is very, very boring. Fortunately, I enjoy the teamwork needed in the 20 and 40 player instances and listening on Teamspeak can be a hoot, so for me it is a social occasion. Hmm, this may be a sad comment on my life.  That said I went to MC for 3 months before winning an epic. (I'm now 6/8 arcanist armor plus a netherwind crown.) It seems to be a streak thing for me with the /random 100 system. Back in the beginning when no one had epics, the SK system may have gotten me an epic faster. It's hard to say because what drops and how many bosses you kill a night factors in. We're up to killing 4-6 bosses a night now (going for 7!) instead of 1-2, so there are a lot of epics dropping. With either system, a relatively new person to MC has a great chance of getting an epic since a lot of people have almost completed their sets. There have been nights recently where a person won multiple epics because no one else needed that piece and we have DE'd a few to Nexus crystals. For instances we are just starting to raid, we'll see how things go with SK. As for signing up for the raid, they are posted on set days the week before the raid at around 9:00 p.m. Eastern time. (See the COA site for a listing of days.) The posting is announced in COA chat, quickly followed by guild chat, so you shouldn't have to spend a lot of time lurking on the COA site to get in. I'm planning to go directly to the que after I complete my set to let other mages get first chance at a raid, but I'll still want to go sometimes cause it's fun. I know others who do the same thing already. Admittedly, it is harder for some classes (hunters, pallies, rogues) to get in because they are very popular classes, but on several occasions we've "drafted" people with other plans to fill needed slots. (Actually, they were very nice and offered to come. Others have changed to alts when needed.) |
|
Arlo
Moderator 
Posts: 308
|
Post by Arlo on Sept 21, 2006 2:01:04 GMT -5
I have to agree with Wio that the new looting system should enable ppl to complete Tier 1 set from MC.
And I agree with Glif about the fun going to MC raids, like him I go for the social aspect of it.
I have no grand vision of ever getting complete sets of Tier 1 Armor for all my Toons. My warlock has the most with 3/8 (maybe 4), the rest of my toons I leveled to see how all the Classes work - their strong points and weakness. I currently have 9 lvl 60's (Priest (2), Pally, Druid, Mage, Rogue, Warrior, Hunter, and Warlock) on 2 acct's and working on a Pally/Priest duo (mid 30's ready to hit SM).
For gear I go for the crafted items, and round out with drops from the instances. PUG's are ok, but i prefer going with guildies or CoA folks. If I can't get a group, I can always log both accts and quests - being on the west coast and having an unusual work schedule limits my play with other guildies.
|
|
Teras
Full Member
Posts: 184
|
Post by Teras on Sept 25, 2006 15:14:46 GMT -5
Hey guys I almost never weigh in over here on things but I wanted to add some to Jax's statements given that together we have seen most of the development of MMOs over the years. Understand that I have a slightly different impression because my experience comes mostly from the horde side and I participate in a serious DKP raiding guild.
Bottomline impression I have is that Blizzard has created a system that requires greed for advancement. so Greed=Advancement.
If you want the best loots in the game then you have to do the top instance, period. (Naxx currently). So why not just go put a 40 man together and run Naxx?...because it isnt possible. you have to grow through content. Tier 0 sets (LBRS/UBRS/STRAT?SCHOLO) are needed for MC. Tier 1 gear from MC is needed for BWL, whose tier 2 gear is needed for AQ40 Whose gear is needed for Naxx. The system is simple, you have to move through each instance to get to the next one and only the final one has the Max gear.
Charity doesnt work for this.
The more you share items the more you dilute your power base and the slower you move through the steps. It is hard enough to run MC enough to get a single 40 man team equipped to do BWL without spreading that gear out among more people. So almost every system invented to share Epic loot is focused on giving the vast majority of gear to the few people that can attend regularly and have the time to advance through content.
This chained content is the real criminal that makes doing any loot system fairly impossible. If its fair then you never advance and every expansion instance added makes the gap between your epics and top epics higher. And, anyone who PvPs (I do almost exclusively) knows there is a big difference between regular epics and Naxx or even AQ40 gear. A good PvPer with AQ40 gear will wipe me like a weak sneeze and I have a complete epic set of gear including weapon.
So Blizzard's system not only offers the casual gamer nothing, the system is steadily growing the gap between the Haves and the Have nots.
The real tragedy of the massive Bind On Pickup system in this game is that the have nots cant even close the gap with money. If you cant beat the bosses then you cant get the loot. No options.
So good friends are left with three options, 1) soldier on without the epics and enjoy the casual content (which doesnt exist). 2) work through loot systems with casual raiding guilds to get equipment that gets more inferior with every expansion or 3) move off and join serious raiding guilds with all the problems that generates and leave your friends behind.
This is Jax's point. You either move on, change your groups playstyles or leave the game for lack of content.
The destruction of the player community defined.
Teras
|
|
Jaxs
Administrator
Posts: 1,991
|
Post by Jaxs on Sept 25, 2006 17:22:56 GMT -5
Bingo! Well said. |
|
|
|
Post by Aeife/Niamb on Sept 26, 2006 9:37:27 GMT -5
I think you hit the nail on the head Teras. I think Blizzard realizes the problem they have created and are trying to address some of those concerns in the Burning Crusade expansion.
They have announced new instanced dungeons will be geared toward 5, 10 and 25 man groups. That is the wall that DoJ ran into. We could not field more than 15 players at any given time, which put the epic gear in MC, BWL, Zul'Gurub and AQ 20 or 40 out of our reach. So, we got our tier zero set and there was nothing more to do in the game.
Fortunately we found the Coalition of Azeroth. While coalitions are always more difficult by their nature, first in Pervin and then in Keelman we found great leadership. Boy, were we lucky there. Still, without an organized loot system we were pushing water uphill because unless you get a well equipped core group, you are not going to advance. That's just the way the game is designed. This new loot system is designed to address that problem and seems fairly structured.
Leveling to 70 will give casual gamers reason to play the game again. Molten Core at level 70 will be assessible to smaller groups and folks who can't now, should be able to get their tier one armor. As I read it, Burning Crusade should have 5, 10 and 25 man dungeons that yield epic loot. This will give new life to smaller guilds. And at least some of those instances will be assessible at different levels, with harder levels yielding better loot.
What will be interesting is how these changes will play out for today's hard core raiding guilds who are now fielding 40 man groups on a regular basis. Now the top limit on the best challenges will be 25, which means 15 people who are currently part of the core raiding group will become 2nd tier raiders in their guild. I predict some of today's hard core raiding guilds will discentegrate under these changes.
|
|
|
|
Post by Atochew on Sept 26, 2006 10:30:02 GMT -5
I think you hit the nail on the head Teras. I agree 100% that this is the problems, however: This I have to disagree with, it will just make the margin wider as the hardcore groups end up with Level 70 Tiered sets. I have been playing with a casual guild on Gnomeregan (curse you Wio for startging that [Server Down] guild) and having lots of fun. The reason for the curse is that someone has been cross-posting about the server down guilds (one for Horde and Alliance now) and when the other servers go down, out queue to get in goes to over 500. And I never saw a queue until those guilds were started. (sorry needed to vent, after spending 30 minutes in the queue, then another 30 trying to find copper in low level areas due to a profession respec). |
|
|
|
Post by Wiotack on Sept 26, 2006 11:53:15 GMT -5
My apologies Ato, but in truth, I didn't start the guild, I'm just the current guild leader of it. What's funny is that it was started as a whim and I was the 24th member. The damn guild grew by leaps and bounds and was well past 500 members in the first 12 hours.
I didn't realize that there had been posts about it on any of the realms boards. Guess that explains why when I log on in the morning that 30-50 new people are added before I've been online even an hour. There is no way to actually know the number of members at this point (I've even paged a GM and asked and even their abilities don't show more than 500 members) but if I'd have to venture a guess, I'd say we're 2000+ guildmembers at this point.
Sure wish Blizzard would do something to modify the guild interface to actually show all of the members. I mean how hard could that be. I mean it's really screwy, I log on and hit O and show maybe 10 people online in the guild, but if I do /who Our Server Is Down it shows 200 members on. The interface seems to only show the first 500 members that joined, not really WHO is on.
Oh well, again, sorry about the queue. It's really the alliance guild that's causing the queues, the horde guys would never do that to you.
Grimme
|
|
|
|
Post by Arinna on Sept 26, 2006 18:13:24 GMT -5
;D Remember me?
Blizz has made the game greed driven by poor design, no questions asked. But I dont think that thats the real evil force behind it all, but moreso, the bait. It is up to us as the player to decide what we truly want to extract from the game as individuals. You all know me well enough, or at least, I think a few of you do. I play the game for the joy of it. Challenges, chatting about random topics (some even borderline legalities in some countries  ), or what have you. This is truly the beauty of any MMORPG. Otherwise, Im pretty sure we'd all save our monthly bucks & play FPS's or whatever else fits your fancy. Gear is low on the list of priorities to me. If Im having fun from levels 1-30 and decide that once I hit 30 I'll start another toon to level, or, Ill reroll it and do it all over again... Hey, thats what works for me. May not work for you, and I dont ask that anyone should understand it nor do they have to understand it. It's all about doing whatever it is that you enjoy doing when your in-game. Granted, many of us set ourselves some high standards to achieve and therefore warrant the term "need" on some of the gear/items. That is a choice that each of us makes knowing the difficulty & challenges that will face us should we choose to do so. That is where the strength of WoW begins to shine actually. If everything was easy, then everyone would probably be whining that Blizz sucks & their is no challenge. (Remember AoS/UO folks?) This is an extremely rooted conversation that branches off into so many more dynamics to cover, I would need to employ another web server just to contain this thread!! (Exaggerated?? Maybe) Real human personalities driven by real personal goals, beliefs, social acceptance due to out of game real world conflicts, and on & on it goes. This would lead me into a thread on guild ethics and the like, but I wont go there. (I dont have the strength) In summary (and my personal opinion mind you)... 1) Choose your gameplay style & do what makes you happy. 2) Choose your friends & guildmates wisely. (Most important imo) 3) Be aware & prepare for the obstacles that you will face. 4) You choose your own goals, and respectively, your own challenges.
(gets off soap box & gets back into cage) |
|
), or what have you. This is truly the beauty of any MMORPG. Otherwise, Im pretty sure we'd all save our monthly bucks & play FPS's or whatever else fits your fancy.