A hard decision

[steeny]

After much thought and debate on the matter, I have decided that it is in the best intrest for me to take Steeny out of the Defenders of Justice. It is something I don't exactly enjoy doing, however I feel it is the best thing for me to do for the advancement of my toon.

I got steeny to level 60, and now I've come to the realization that DoJ is not a serious enough guild to fill what I want to do with Steeny. I also am looking for more structure, and a guild that is expecting more of me. I know that the structure is shaped the way it is purposely, however I feel it is my time to expand past that.

I want to thank everyone for Steeny's time in DOJ, you guys have helped me gain my levels, and I have had some excelant times. I am joining Draco, another guild in COA, and since it could rise as an issue, they did not recruit me, I asked them because it was a situation where I stick with a COA guild, or move to another guild that I would be given less of an opportunity to group with you guys.

I still would like to open my help to anyone who wants it. I don't feel I am leaving you guys, my heart is in doj. I am moving Steeny on to where I can do more for the toon I worked so hard to get to 60.

Thanks everyone. I want to lastly say that I hope that in the future, I hope the guild can keep what it has had for me for the most part. A safe and relaxing environment, that dosn't let things such as cliques, and other problems that could destroy the very point of a guild.

I will leave my alts in doj, I want to play with you guys still, I just want to take my 60 past where he is at. It has taken a lot to bring me to this point, and I think I will have the most fun with this decision.

I hope you all respect my decision and understand. And don't forget to hit me up when you need something, I'll see what I can do.

Thats all for now,
Your guildie, and friend
-Steeny-

[nareesa]

omg hi, gonna hijack steeny's thread since is on the same subject. sooo when I first came to DoJ was not sure how I would fair. I have met many wonderful friends and would not change that for anything.

Am gonna move Nareesa to Draco also. I want more oppurtunity to raid, etc. I am up til late in the morning est when most are in bed. I believe Draco would suit Nareesa better.

keeping Phelony in DoJ to grp and hang out w/ my friends here. /huggles

[Aeife/Niamb]

I wish you both the best.

[Jayden]

You both already know how I feel, I cant blame you at all.
To be honest I've toyed with the idea myself for over 2 months now.
I really dont know if i'd ever leave but I love going on these big raids. Draco has really stepped up big time and started running alot of these and I really have so much fun when they are running them but getting a spot is getting harder and harder.
Most of the classes if you dont sign up within 2 mins of them posting the raid forget it, chances are you not going.
I actually would love to start running MC raids but am not comfortable enough yet with the boss strategies to lead one.

I know DoJ has always been a casual guild and I like that feel but it seems as of late the guild has become extremely inactive as a whole.
Sure small groups of regulars do things with each other but thats it....Man I remember the great days when we were doing fun events. Not even being a raid just stupid fun stuff like the dog fights and skill gain dueling in Moonglow...
I mean there is so many fun guild events we could have but we dont, and doesnt seem like there is much interest except for a few people.
A couple of us went on a CoA event where you had to lead a naked level 10 player through the DM and it was a race to see who could do it the fastest.
I had a ball with that, really reminded me of the good days../sigh

Anyway I do wish you both the best, there is absolutely no hard feelings whatsoever. I am truly happy for you and if either of you need any help or just want to plain out group up and wipe stuff or get wiped , just send me a tell.

.../Hugs

[keelmann]

One quick note from the Draco side, initially our response was we couldn't do this due to CoA rules. However, both GL's agreed in this case it was the best solution.

We sincerely hope there's no hard feelings, either for the players themselves, or Draco in general.

[Lastat]

well, first thing i wanna say is good! dont let the door hit ur butt on the way out. second, naa im jus kiddin lawl!!! it was a pleasure gaming with the both of ya, although i havent been in game in while, and prolly wont be for a while. you guys have fun! see ya round...

[Arinna]

Id like to follow up on this with my outlook on the entire situation, in which, Draco has not contributed to. Rather, they happen to be a guild full of good people sharing an extremely enjoyable gaming experience in the right place at the right time for some.

DoJ was founded years ago back in Ultima Online. It was compromised of a layout of morale people sharing the same interests, values and goals. To experience a virtual world of adventure and surprise alongside other players that retained the same gameplay style, and ultimately, the same general personalities that allow each member to truly enjoy their time in game.

Sometimes we would encounter a bad seed, which is prone to happen from time to time. We would discuss the issue or persons in question, and collectively, make a wise & just decision as to the course of action to be taken without prejudice or personal opinions taken into account. This worked very well for all that were involved and for the betterment of the guild as a whole.

As time progressed and the guild began to flourish, just as everything inside of the guild had grown, so did the occasions of issues that had to be addressed. This lead to the conception of “The Council”.

The Council was a volunteer committee of of long & good standing members that understood who & what the DoJ were about at the core of it all. They were selected by the members of the guild, and voted on by the members of the guild. This was a strong format that served the guild very well for quiet some time. It ensured that the guild was maintained to the highest ability, and guided by a panel of individuals in which the guild entrusted to serve them in times of need.

And as time will do, it passed on and the guild managed to be one of the largest and successful guilds in UO (Catskills). Members came, members went. Problems occurred, and so did solutions. We were a guild known for our open arms to all recruitment, and our Chivalry was second to none.

This leads me into my present day concerns. By using comparisons of what we, the DoJ, use to be, and what we have been, and what we have become.

DoJ is not what it once was. And to verify this information is a fact, and not just my opinion, I point towards the line that has formed heading for the exit. They are not on the out because we, as a guild, have done something to promote this response, but rather, the fact that we as a guild have done NOTHING to prevent or avoid this.

Several members have left our guild in the past few days, and more are leaving than I can keep track of. They are in search of something more than our guild can provide. I don’t believe that statement to be true by any means. What I do find myself able to believe is the fact that they are in search of something more than our guild was willing to provide for themselves. And for that, we are all to blame at some extent. But I am a believer that some people were meant to be leaders, and others are meant to be lead. If that were not a true statement, leaders wouldn’t exist. This brings me to my next point of observation.

Our guild has no formal structure, or, hierarchy if you will. Once, I truly believed that was partially the secret to our success. Now, I realize that this may ultimately be our demise. Members needing to be lead have been left behind so to speak. Again, this creates a form of unhappiness that lingers & looms and spreads throughout the roster like a plague and infects us all to some degree.

It is at this point that I would like to get closer to summarizing the thoughts & ideas that have been beckoning me to try to find a possible solution, and bring it to the entire guild and work as a guild to determine the future of DoJ.

My largest fear, personally, was making this post & possibly insulting or coming across incorrectly to the guild or any of the members that reside within it. But not addressing what is at hand only makes matters far more worse in the long run. In fact, I believe that it is this very same approach that has brought us to this point at this present day.

After many a discussion with quiet a few of our members disclosing their thoughts & emotions, I have decided to volunteer myself to stand before the guild as quiet possibly a scapegoat for some, a messiah for others perhaps, and to others, a traitor. Maybe I am one of the these, maybe I am all, or quiet possibly, none of the above. I would ask that each and every one of you read this and realize what my intentions truly are.

I now post my ideas as to what I believe will need to change in order for the guild to become what is once was.
(I would like to note that I do NOT speak for everyone within the guild)


1) A new Guildmaster be appointed to lead DoJ forward. It has been my opinion, and many a voice has been spoken to me in regards to, that our guildmaster be active, and present, and actually interface with the members of the guild.

2) A new hierarchy , be it a loosely knit or other, be established to create a more structured guild design.

I want to state that this is the most difficult post that I have ever had to make. I mean no disrespects towards Jaxs, for he has been able to bring us this far for so very long.

If the guild and its roster wish to move forward & grow, then I ask everyone to post a reply in regards. But in its current conditions, if a change is not to be made, acknowledge and acted upon, then I feel that my time within the DoJ may have come to an end as well. I do not wish to make a stand for the betterment of a guild, if the guild itself does not wish to be made so. I am personally risking being forsaken from the guild that Ive been dedicated and committed to over the past 7-8 years.

Thank you – Ras -

[nudd]

I too have seen what is happening and echo much of what Ras has stated. I am unsure if I want to call for a new guildmaster, but I'd like to see the resurrection of the Council and a revamping of the guidlines of what it means to be a member of the DoJ and what it requires to gain admittance to our fold.

I have found that lately, there has been a severe lack of communication between the different level ranges. There is little if any help being provided anymore to those that are below 50, and after a couple of times asking in the guild chat, I see the lower level guys giving up and looking outside for assistance. This is bad. Gnomeragen isn't all that bad. 8P I volunteer my time in game to helping those in need. If you see me (Ear, Xod, Xit) in the game and need help with something let me know. I will do my best to help you out.

Jaxs, you've done a good job keeping this guild going for the last *mumbleahdao* years (garbled to protect ages *heh*) And I'd like to see you continue in that role. I do think that we need a formal method of handling in game issues and that the guild needs to respect the ruling of any Council that we come up with. Even if it means your "best friend in RL" doesn't get to participate as a member of our guild.

This needs to be done to ensure the guild's survival.

Hopefully I didn't ramble too much, and my point is taken as intended.

--
Xit.
Nudd.
Floyd. (pink)

[Aeife/Niamb]

Well, I can only give you my own opinion. I think DoJ has drifted far from its roots. Our laissez-faire attitude toward recruits has hurt us. I no longer feel I know most of the people in the guild. I log in and look at the guild list and think: "Who are these people?" They don't post on our forums. I've never been introduced to them. Maybe some are alts. Hard to know, but the guild no longer feels like a family to me.

I don't think things are fine the way they are. We are bleeding members...including me. I thought I could be active in DoJ and Unpossible, but I can't. Other than post CoA activities and logging into TS once in a while, my relationship with DoJ has become peripheral. I am so active with Niamb in my new guild, I don't play Aeife any more. I was the one who had taken it upon herself to set up weekly activities and no one seems to have stepped up to do that in my place. Then again, the new 5 man max on most dungeons would have put the kibosh on that in any case.

Jim/Jake and Blackwind have quit the game. Skookoms and Maggee have gone to another guild. Zharn/Teras plays exclusively on the horde side. Jaxs has never been more than a very casual leader. I'm pretty much MIA. Grimme has stepped up to the plate, but he can't do it alone. I know. I felt like I was holding my finger in the dike trying to hold back the sea for some time and it is a relief to be free of that responsibility.

Most of our members don't seem interested in the end-game. While our membership in the CoA does provide access to the end-game content, Dracos is providing almost all the leadership. Jaxs has scheduled some ZG events, but we seem to have trouble getting 20 people to show up. Those I thought most capable of providing raid leadership (Skooks and Steeny) have left the guild. Kotaki could lead raids too, but he has had a raft of personal issues to deal with.

If you want a friendly chat and a chance to group with a few folks at your level, DoJ is great. Beyond that, it seems lacking in purpose. But maybe that is the game's fault. WoW is just not casual friendly.

[Cabs]

Interesting, "quite" interesting.....

[ET2 Myslivy]

I hate to say this, but I came to most of this conclusion a while back...I am a new member to some extent, but even I could see the growing problems within the guild. I am not one to just come out a blurt that there are problems going on, but I am one to speak to those I feel have a common interest in what I have to say...case in point...a few months back, there was the opportunity for the guild as a whole to move to another server and it was deicded that it was a bad idea, on that note..I sent 3 of my non-guilded toons to the server and found it wasn't that bad there, I had thought to leave the guild entirely and move everyone of my toons to the new server, but I decided to allow this guild, from which I joined to be closer to my brother and know the people he calls friends...but I have seen this guild he spoke of dwindling down a very steep path that I do not know if it can recover.

Some people have left 1 Alt running in the guild so that they are not completely cut off from all of us and I have a feeling that if you asked them on their main toons they would be willing to help out, but the fact of the matter is that DOJ is in need of help. I have tried to see the light at the end of the tunnel as of late, but I find it very difficult to do that. I have asked countless times for help when people are on and I get the usual response of "I'm sorry we're raiding"..whatever happened to helping all of your guildmates out..I find that the only people that ever helped me out are now leaving this guild...i'm my eyes..I don't see a reason to stay anymore, but I have faith....

Faith that this can be changed...I will stay here to the last man if I must to see that these changes happen, but I am only one more other then Grimme....

[Wiotack]

Wow, this is some fine mess. I’m going to try to address a few of the statements made in this thread so bear with me.

As for the need for a new guildmaster, ya'll are just plain wrong there. Jaxs is the guildmaster of DoJ and always will be. On the other hand, Jaxs isn't around on a day-to-day basis, so the guild DOES NEED an active guildleader. Those are not one and the same in my estimation. Now how do we go about appointing a guildleader and what will the rolls of that person be? That something that the Active WoW DoJ Veterans need to look at and come up with a plan to correct the problems we are now seeing. The reason I say the WoW veterans is that this game and its’ dynamics are not the same as any of the other games in which DoJ has had an active presence. As such, the tenets that DoJ established when it was founded are not valid within the confines of WoW. Finding the right person to fill the bill will not be an easy task. If the wrong person is chosen for the task then we may wind up with more people leaving than staying.

Snake brings up a point that when people ask for help from the high levels that they get the “I’m in an instance” response. Well yea, that’s about all there is for a high level these days. For a long time people were screaming for the ability to do the high level instances, now that we have that ability, people are complaining that too many of us are now in instances. We all pay the same amount of money each month to play this game and enjoy it. It’s a case of not being able to have you cake and eat it too. If the way you enjoy this game is by doing instances then that’s what you should be doing. There is no reason that a character of any given level short of lvl 60 should not be able to play and have fun without a lvl 60 holding their hand. What I’ve found is that there are always quests to do that are within your current ability you just need to take the initiative to find them and do them. Sure there will be a time when you really DO need the help of a higher level player to complete a quest, but those are few and far between and you can make arrangements to have someone help you, but it should be at THEIR convenience not YOURS. While you wait for them to be available to help you can do other quests that are again, “more appropriate to your level”. The other thing to remember is that if you are expecting help in an instance, then you damn well should have all the quests available for that instance. If there are some you can’t get because your level isn’t high enough, take the hint and come back to that instance when you are able to get all of them instead of expecting a higher level guildmate to run you through the instance just so you can get that item you just HAVE TO HAVE. That item will still be there when you are the proper level; you just have to be a bit patient.

Others have mentioned people leaving our guild because they aren’t finding high-level activities to participate in within the DoJ community. The average level of the toons in our guild has been steadily climbing, in theory that should give us more high-level toons available to participate in events. This hasn’t been true in practice though. The problem of not having things to do is a catch 22. We need more high levels to be able to provide the events that people want to participate in, but when that doesn’t happen as quickly as people like, they remove themselves from the guild to find those events elsewhere. In effect, that adds to the problems DoJ has of not being able to field enough high-levels to run the events those people crave. Instead of making strides forward, we are taking steps back by having to wait until more toons reach the level needed to fill the void created by those that have left.

Well I’ve ranted enough for one post, so I’ll end now, but before I go though, I’d like to say that I check the DoJ Officers’ Forum on a regular basis. I look forward to seeing the topic of guild leadership being addressed there.

[gnarled]

I am very new to DOJ, one of the players that recruited me into DOJ was Steeny, the other has since taken a break from the game to handle personal issues. I harbor no ill will towards Steeny or Naresse for making a move to what they felt that would help them gain more enjoyment of their playtime, I admit I am envious of them both. I am unhappy with the bleeding of characters that DOJ is suffering from, I expect that there will be more to follow. I do not believe that DOJ has changed much since I joined but that the players themselves outgrew the guild. This happened to the guild I was in on the Sauramar server. I am not calling for a change in leadership this is Jax’s guild. I am of the opinion that unhappy members of DOJ be allowed to petition to charter members of COA with no negative repercussions be it publicly or on closed forums to the member or the petitioned guild. The end game of WOW requires a level of teamwork and participation that does not exist in DOJ.

[Arinna]

As for the need for a new guildmaster, ya'll are just plain wrong there. Jaxs is the guildmaster of DoJ and always will be. On the other hand, Jaxs isn't around on a day-to-day basis, so the guild DOES NEED an active guildleader.

---

So, what is the guildmasters role? If he doesnt need to be active or involved, then what is their immediate association?

---

That something that the Active WoW DoJ Veterans need to look at and come up with a plan to correct the problems we are now seeing. The reason I say the WoW veterans is that this game and its’ dynamics are not the same as any of the other games in which DoJ has had an active presence. As such, the tenets that DoJ established when it was founded are not valid within the confines of WoW.

---

Sounds like a way to eliminate a handful of guild veterans and narrow it down to a very limited selection.

And speaking of WoW vets, how many do we really have left? Seems to me like they are all leaving.

So now, we are really narrowing the field down, are'nt we?

And the guild and its Council are not limited to the confides of the in game dynamics. The game itself has very little bearing on the individuals ability to be kind, just, and to be able to allow themselves to also be friends amongst the guild roster.

I find that statement to be void of any useful information or valid refernce.

---

Snake brings up a point that when people ask for help from the high levels that they get the “I’m in an instance” response. Well yea, that’s about all there is for a high level these days.

---

The guild is about helping each other as well as ourselves. If a member cannot sacrifice one evening of raiding or what have you, then is that person truly giving their honest effort to aid in the growth and developement of the guild as a whole?

I dont think so. Not even close. It sounds more like a bit of selfishness combined with poor team spirit.

Doesnt sound a bit like DoJ quality to me.

---

The average level of the toons in our guild has been steadily climbing, in theory that should give us more high-level toons available to participate in events.

---

Thats a self defeating statement.

The average level is rising due to the fact that the roster is falling off.

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I’d like to say that I check the DoJ Officers’ Forum on a regular basis. I look forward to seeing the topic of guild leadership being addressed there.

---

I didnt bring this discussion there due to the fact that..

1) Half of the members that read that forum have quit the guild or the game.

2) This is a discussion that I felt the guild as a whole should be involved in. Their need not be any private discussions at this point.

---

[Blackwind]

My 2 cents (I left the game not the guild)

When we first started this guild some of our basic believes were unheard of in mmo world. Like ras has mentioned (even though he may have missed some) it was those believes that attracted and allowed us to hold our earlier members.

As the mmo world grew other guilds have formed (in parallel) with similar feelings to ours. Overtime some of our basic ideals have been compromised and now DOJ is no longer as unique as it used to be. So I would ask, if we don’t offer nothing unique why would we expect mew players to stay? (I know friendship, but it takes time and we really don’t have much to hold a person until it develops)

Now to apply this to wow,

We could attract more players by focusing on raiding but that would force us to change and compromise some of our basic values even more. That just doesn’t make sense, as it’s really the base of our problems in the first place.

If you think about what DOJ is and isn’t and think about how wow is structured there’s really only one conclusion you can come too. WOW is just not compatible with our guild.

So with that in mind, I’d say if the friendship is enough for you then great, stick around, but if you need more then that to have fun go find it were you can, we won’t forget a friend and we’ll catch up with you next game were we can play how we want too not how we’re told too.

(PS: now apply the logic to a rank / leader system in terms of one of our initial ideals was equality … heh, same outcome)

[Wiotack]

Great responses Jordis, just the type I would have expected from someone that is relatively new to Wow, but long to DoJ. It is exactly that type of thinking that lead me to the conclusion that the WoW veterans and not the DoJ veterans should address the problems at hand.

You seem to think that there are very few veterans left, hmm, seems to me we still have quite a few around, but hey maybe I’m missing something here. Seems to me that there are still quite a few around that have come up through the ranks playing this game and know how the system works in this game. The veterans are the ones that have been here for a year or more and not just a few months.

In your post you ask what the roll of the guildmaster would be. That person is the founding father of the guild in general and as such has much to say about how the basic principles behind DoJ, but that person doesn’t need to have a roll in the day to day operations of the guild in each game though, as that should be the roll of the GUILDLEADER for each particular game. The guildleader would function as the head of guild in the game they are playing and control the day-to-day operations of the guild in THAT game. Whether the guildleader chooses to run the guild with the help of a council of elders or not should be dictated by the game mechanics, not by what has been done since DoJ was founded.

You seem to think that using the private board is not the way to proceed at this point. What’s so wrong with a number of the WoW veterans coming up with ideas in that forum that can then be taken to the general membership for their input? If we keep discussing things here on the main forum it allows those that have left the guild or the game to have input in affairs that are no longer their concern, and as such they should have NO say in the day to day operations of the guild. If they want a say then by all means let them come back to the guild or the game and then their voice has some credence. Oh and for the record, I don’t think leaving a token toon in the guild should allow them a voice either; their concerns should be with their new guild not the one that they left.

You say that the game dynamics have no bearing on whether a person is kind or just or whether a person has friends within the guild. Why is playing the game for enjoyment not kind or just or not conducive to having friends in the guild? Is it kind or just for a low level toon to expect the high levels toons to respond to their every beck and call, it sure as hell isn’t. You can be kind and just without doing that, well at least most of us can. And in a community as large as DoJ where players are on at all hours of the day and night, there is no way for you to even KNOW all of the members, much less be FRIENDS with all of them. Hell with the size of DoJ right now, it’s tough to even know all of the main characters, much less all of the alts. It would have been great if all of our members had used the database to list their characters and alts, but even that was too much to ask of some of our members. Hell half of our membership won’t even see this post because they won’t take the time to read the boards at all, much less on a daily basis.

You question whether a person honestly aides in the growth and development of the guild as a whole without helping others, well you can group with people outside the guild and do a lot to promote DoJ’s future growth. Maintaining DoJ’s good name within the WoW community does as much for it’s growth and development as does grouping within our guild.

You seem to want the high levels to help the low levels, well that just cheats the low level out of much needed xp, or have you not noticed that when you group outside your relative level that your xp gain drops dramatically. It also prevents the low level from learning the subtleties of their particular class because if all they have to do is stand back and watch a high level kill every mob in the area then they won’t know how to play their class to the fullest. They would be better served by finding individuals within the guild to group with and in lieu of that people in the area they are questing in. That gives them the maximum xp gain and also allows them to really learn to play their toon. Sure it’s tougher, but you also have to learn to use your head to get you through some situations rather than relying on the brawn of a high level to get you by. This method may not appeal to those who’s only concern is getting to lvl 60 as quick as possible grabbing all the pretty blue and purple items along the way, or to those that have so damn many alt’s that they can’t figure out which one to play though so maybe it doesn’t fit the goals of some of our members.

Oh and for the record, my statement about the average level of the toons rising is not self-defeating. It’s a simple fact. If you take the time to do a weekly summary of toon levels you’ll see it for yourself. The people that are leaving are among the high level toons more than the low level. More and more people are working their toons toward the max level, which can only INCREASE the average level of the guild’s toons. There are a few exceptions to this trend though, like those people that can’t seem to settle on one class or race long enough get them to high level. Those people though are the exception, not the rule.

I’ve again gone on far longer than I should have with this discussion, but at least people know where I stand on the issues.

Grimme

[Jaxs]

DoJ and the easy road.

I could say many things here but I will just say that members and veterans alike in our WoW guild have chosen to take the easy road in almost every confrontation.

In the beginning when I was pushing for large numbers and chat was a little out of sorts people complained and we heard about quality over quantity. We had such a fuss that our starter guild was stripped in half.

Then we had more people leveling to 60 and then leaving. We heard we need to provide end of game content. 40 man raids etc. The solution to this is and has always been promotion of our guild, leadership of events and hard work. No one here was up to the challenge no matter how much we asked. We took the easy road and joined a coalition where these events are being planned for us.

We are a free and open guild for casual players. This mean we have to have huge numbers to field end of game content. We are not an exclusive 60 lvl player guild. This also means that people have to actually plan and run events and be willing to take the heat for failures or missteps. More than not our membership has slammed people that have tried and made mistakes.

To our credit, our guild has an amazing set up out of game. We have message boards that are active, we have a Team Speak server for those that choose to use it, we have an instance and raid sign up system, roster database and a news broadcaster. We also have had a dedicated few that have dealt with personal issues between people and helped maintain and promote our guild.

We don’t have dedicated event planners. We have made it difficult for them to survive the harsh criticisms of others. Remember this is supposed to be entertainment. People get enough grief at work. They don’t need it here.

With all this people still take the easy road. Yes, people leave because it is much easier to become a brick in a house then to build that house yourself. A number of people have tried to help build our house and run events but it is difficult. It is much easier to just join another group as a number that has its house built already.

You get from this guild what you give in many respects. If your looking for leadership look no further than the mirror. Stand up and show us what you are made of. Organize and run events. Recruit people for your events. Get the word out about our guild and your events. Take the heat for your failures and success.

I personally spend more time managing this guild and resolving issues among our members and our dealings with other guilds than I do playing WoW on many nights. I don’t see anyone assisting with events and doing the hard work. It is much easier to follow and call for leadership from others than provide it yourself. I am not just talking one event or even ten, I am talking week in and week out for months.

We have great people that have contributed much to our guild and still do. I refuse to ask people to do more than what they feel they want to or can. I am beyond grateful for any and all assistance this guild gets.

If you want something, build it and they will come. We will assist you the best we individually can. There are a lot of founding members still here and willing to participate. If you choose the easy road nothing will ever get done. Leadership is more than a title or a rank. You become a leader by service to others.

I have made lots of friends here and continue to call them friends even when they move on. I play these games to enjoy time with friends. I don’t ask more from them than I am willing to give myself. I am happy DoJ is here and I have friends to play games with. I would love to see DoJ become more but others will have to help make that happen. A few does not a nation make.

[Allura Prime]

*sigh*

DISCLAIMER: The views in this post are those of the individual poster and do not necessarily represent the views of this board. Also the poster has quoted certain individuals not to point them out, but to make a point.

Ok put on your steel toed shoes because I'm sure I'll be stepping on a few toes.

I have been a member of "The Defenders of Justice" for going on 5 years now. I've played as a member in Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Star Wars Galaxies and now World of Warcraft. I initially joined "The Defenders of Justice" because truthfully they saved my butt in UO from some PK'rs.


Jordis said "DoJ was founded years ago back in Ultima Online. It was compromised of a layout of morale people sharing the same interests, values and goals. To experience a virtual world of adventure and surprise alongside other players that retained the same gameplay style, and ultimately, the same general personalities that allow each member to truly enjoy their time in game."

I stayed in "The Defenders of Justice" because of the standard that they held.

As Blackwind stated "When we first started this guild some of our basic beliefs were unheard of in mmo world."

What are those basic beliefs? They can be summed up in 4 words I think: "Justice, Honor, Humility and Truth."

Oh wait that's on our main website on the front page isn't it?

Oh right we decided that people were no longer required to go to our main website to see what we are all about, and read the oath. It was decided they just need to post on these boards to introduce themselves. Hmmmm, who made this decision anyway?

Let's see, Blackwind said "If you think about what DOJ is and isn’t and think about how wow is structured there’s really only one conclusion you can come too, WOW is just not compatible with our guild." We weren't compatible with UO or SWG either, so why is WoW so different?

Let's stop for a moment.

I think we all agree that the guild is in trouble as far as WoW is concerned. So what are the issues? Let's list them and see if we can get to the root of the problems. In fact I will start a new thread so we don't get totally off topic here.

Whatever those problems may be, they need to be addressed in an open forum, with an open mind and without finger pointing

[nareesa]

Hi, please be respectful and put this in a different thread instead of continuing to use Steeny and I to start a debate.

Thank you.

[Arinna]

Agreed Nareesa ..My apologies to you and Steeny. That was not the original intent whatsover.

---

[Arinna]

I will create a new thread addressing this.

[Rylok]

Steeny and Nareesa - Good luck in Draco. I'm sure you guys will have fun. It was cool being guildmates.


Rylok

[Atochew]

I have read through most of the posts in this thread and agree with many of them. As a casual gamer I really don't want to get into something that is going to require me to commit to being ready to play at a certain time and for a certain duration. While I was in Charlotte I actually could have done that, but it would have been at a later starting time than for most.

I have not been around much lately because I have become INCREDIBLY bored with WoW. I have five toons and only one is 60 and that took me much more time than others. And when I work one of my lower level toons I find someone in the guild to play with for 2-3 times at the most because they have outstripped the areas I can play in.

I have not been a DoJer as long as some, but longer than most and will always be interested in gaming with this group of players. But the problems that I have experienced with WoW has convinced me that for now it is not the game for me.

I have been enjoying EVE and found a 'guild' (corporation) that I play with that is much smaller than DoJ, but has many of the same principals. And the interesting thing about the game is you can actually be competitive (sp?) fairly quickly.

Since I know many DoJers in real life, I am sure I will stay connected and if some major changes are made to WoW or another interesting game comes up, I look forward to rejoining DoJ's ranks.